Posts in Te Tiriti Relationships
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Tena koutou katoa I was asked the other day, how many organisations are operating under the Tiriti/Treaty Relationship Model http://www.cst.org.nz/about/relationship_model/ I was only able to quote four organisations that I know of: - Community Sector Taskforce - Tangata Whenua, Community & Voluntary Sector Research Centre - NZ Coaliation to End Homelssness. - Mangere Integrated Community Health (MICH) Does anyone else know of any other organisations that are operating under this model either at a governance level or an operational level. Love to hear from you Noho ora mai Iris Pahau National Development Manager
Kia ora koutou I am REALLY unsure about this contribution - but here goes! re: On 03/03/2008, Iris Pahau <email obscured>> wrote: > > We all accept that the Treaty was signed by hapu > Should we add something after the first point - Te Tiriti o Waitangi recognises the tino rangatiratanga status of iwi, hapu and whanau manawhenua groups and requires Tangata Tiriti to build an active relationship between each local organisation and its local manawhenua group I look forward to your responses! Please don't hesitate to say what I need to hear. Katherine 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281
Kia ora Pania I agree entirely with your comments. As a kaiako for Social Services I suggest that our tauira look at the CST model and then discuss how this compares with models currently used and they are all agreed that this is the best model to tautoko both Tangata Te Tiriti and Tangata Whenua. Definitely softly, softly as Social Workers are usually of the feisty mode and don't take kindly to being told but respond well to dissemination allowing debate. Having been part of the CST model in practice at an AGM I am well able to speak of the success of this approach. The sadness is that over the last couple of years nga tauira have also voiced doubt that Government would ever be brave enough to use a model such as this nor any of the agencies of the crown. What is common is for our social workers to opt in (or out dependant upon ones view) to either a Maori or mainstream agency to avoid the intricacies of working in a manner that fully supports both houses in either policy or organisational management. The confusion that is also commonly shown is the mistaken belief that any organisation with Maori in positions of power must be a Maori organisation. The kaupapa of the organisation may be mainstream yet if there is a translation of the name in Te Reo they believe it must be Maori. Bit scary!!!! The angst our social workers face when their values are compromised in practice are for some the first time they question the kaupapa of the organisation. Anyway I am thoroughly enjoying following this discussion and look forward to further postings. Kia Ora
Joy ----- Original Message ---- From: Pania Coote <email obscured>> To: <email obscured> Sent: Tuesday, 4 March, 2008 10:21:09 AM Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora I agree we need to move forward and there needs to be work done on the relationship approach. In general terms, people often struggle to make changes in their lives if they are out of their comfort zone or they don't understand the benefits/why? "Tatou, Tatou" - Working together, to strengthen our sector is a way forward using the model to guide the process. For me, I would hate anything forced upon me and would more likely be resistant or do the opposite. Maybe, the softer approach educating the sector on the model by pushing the values base partnership? Empowering and supporting people to make informed decisions, enables them to have ownership and take control. This is my social worker approach coming through. Hei kona Pania -----Original Message----- From: Iris Pahau <email obscured>] Sent: Monday, 3 March 2008 5:57 p.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora Koutou The discussions have been interesting and I just want to summarise it and move it on to the next steps. Generally speaking, I think everyone agrees with statement No. 1 which is: "Firstly it recognises that Te Tiriti O Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi was signed between a Maori Nation and the Crown." We all accept that the Treaty was signed by hapu but I feel comfortable advocating for this statement in future discussions. The second statement I also think has supported although we all feel the axiety of the way in which these grievances are being settled. The 2nd statement was: "Secondly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have suffered grievances as indigenous people of this land." The 3rd statement hasn't had much discussion so I can only consider that it is supported (or not entirely understood). That statement was "Thirdly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have the right and the responsibility to manaaki all Tangata Tiriti who come to Aotearoa in a manner that embraces Maoritanga and Tikanga." The relationship approach is what we really need to work on. It is really crucial that we continue to advocate for this model. We need to talk about the importance of the middle house.. I have renamed that house 'Tatou Whare'. We are all members of organisations that practice monocultural methods. How we can move these organisations to work within the Te Tirit/Treaty relationship framework? Iris ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/38beU8BJLXsVLYDQDY4STI To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/1FJHBTQFVZVakK2NX0wJGV To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
Kia ora I agree we need to move forward and there needs to be work done on the relationship approach. In general terms, people often struggle to make changes in their lives if they are out of their comfort zone or they don't understand the benefits/why? "Tatou, Tatou" - Working together, to strengthen our sector is a way forward using the model to guide the process. For me, I would hate anything forced upon me and would more likely be resistant or do the opposite. Maybe, the softer approach educating the sector on the model by pushing the values base partnership? Empowering and supporting people to make informed decisions, enables them to have ownership and take control. This is my social worker approach coming through. Hei kona Pania
-----Original Message----- From: Iris Pahau <email obscured>] Sent: Monday, 3 March 2008 5:57 p.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora Koutou The discussions have been interesting and I just want to summarise it and move it on to the next steps. Generally speaking, I think everyone agrees with statement No. 1 which is: "Firstly it recognises that Te Tiriti O Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi was signed between a Maori Nation and the Crown." We all accept that the Treaty was signed by hapu but I feel comfortable advocating for this statement in future discussions. The second statement I also think has supported although we all feel the axiety of the way in which these grievances are being settled. The 2nd statement was: "Secondly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have suffered grievances as indigenous people of this land." The 3rd statement hasn't had much discussion so I can only consider that it is supported (or not entirely understood). That statement was "Thirdly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have the right and the responsibility to manaaki all Tangata Tiriti who come to Aotearoa in a manner that embraces Maoritanga and Tikanga." The relationship approach is what we really need to work on. It is really crucial that we continue to advocate for this model. We need to talk about the importance of the middle house. I have renamed that house 'Tatou Whare'. We are all members of organisations that practice monocultural methods. How we can move these organisations to work within the Te Tirit/Treaty relationship framework? Iris ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/38beU8BJLXsVLYDQDY4STI To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
Kia ora koutou. As a koroua I'm a bit hesitant about joining a discussion with people whose expertise is in a different world from mine, but my working life often meant dealing with corporate stupidity and I think I learnt a few useful lessons. My suggestion comes from an incident about 30 years ago when a toll operator got in trouble for saying "Kia ora." It turned out the objection wasn't that it was Maori, but that it wasn't scripted! Back then toll operators (probably all over the world) had scripts to cover every possible situation and they had to use the exact words in their script. It would make perfect sense for our local operator to say "Auckland for Ruatoria please, Napier" as everyone listening would know exactly who was addressing who and what was wanted. The problem was that the bureaucracy had mindlessly applied scripting everywhere. I'd chip away at the edges of your individual problems by looking for similar instances of pointless administrative over-control and undermine them in whatever way I could.
Kia ora Koutou The discussions have been interesting and I just want to summarise it and move it on to the next steps. Generally speaking, I think everyone agrees with statement No. 1 which is: "Firstly it recognises that Te Tiriti O Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi was signed between a Maori Nation and the Crown." We all accept that the Treaty was signed by hapu but I feel comfortable advocating for this statement in future discussions. The second statement I also think has supported although we all feel the axiety of the way in which these grievances are being settled. The 2nd statement was: "Secondly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have suffered grievances as indigenous people of this land." The 3rd statement hasn't had much discussion so I can only consider that it is supported (or not entirely understood). That statement was "Thirdly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have the right and the responsibility to manaaki all Tangata Tiriti who come to Aotearoa in a manner that embraces Maoritanga and Tikanga." The relationship approach is what we really need to work on. It is really crucial that we continue to advocate for this model. We need to talk about the importance of the middle house. I have renamed that house 'Tatou Whare'. We are all members of organisations that practice monocultural methods. How we can move these organisations to work within the Te Tirit/Treaty relationship framework?
Iris
Tena koutou What came through for me at the last national forum regarding the two house model was that a cluster of new to the sector development had received negative information from government & sector individuals on their perceived ideas on the model. When I explained the model as a way of working together in a non-threatening manner, the light bulb often turned on and they could not understand what people were going on about. The more we inform people on the purpose of the model, the more they will understand. It's important to move forward standing together, no matter what, government will always be nervous when they lack control. Alan, I also have little faith in the court system and legislation because government has the power to manipulate and change either or both when it so pleases. As the old saying goes 'divide and rule'. For government it's a game of chess, if you are seen as a threat the troops are brought in to dismantle the other camp. Maybe, I am sounding abit harsh but I do agree the change work happens at the grass-roots, the icing on the cake is only away to keep us in line.
Cheers:) Pania -----Original Message----- From: Alan <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:06 p.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora koutou. Pania, please feel welcome to join in because the more of us get our heads together, the better ideas we are likely to come up with. I think you're right on the button, Tony. Governments manipulate, and gray areas of law make it easier for them to get away with it. That's why I don't hold out much hope for Courts or legislation. In fact I suspect change only works if it happens at the grass-roots level. For much the same reason I'm almost as suspicious of 'models' as I am of ideologies. Too often they are a handy way of setting things in concrete for the benefit of whoever dreamed them up. The best advice I ever had was "Never mind the rules - just do whatever works." It was said in the context of my personal life, but it seems to work just as well everywhere else too. Katherine, I've been having a look at your website and I think what your organization is doing is great. I wish more Maori would do likewise and reach out to Pakeha they come across in their daily lives with a friendly "come and get to know us better." In my teaching days back in the 1960's those of us in smaller and mostly Maori communities made a point of doing that with newcomers, and our race relations were pretty good. I hope you city folk are listening! It doesn't need to be didactic or ideological - direct experience is always the best antidote for mistaken ideas, and a simple "come and have fun with us" invitation is probably the best. Gotta go - good doco on Maori TV I don't want to miss. ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/32gnvY1qlfe2undw98cN0v To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
Kia ora koutou. Pania, please feel welcome to join in because the more of us get our heads together, the better ideas we are likely to come up with. I think you're right on the button, Tony. Governments manipulate, and gray areas of law make it easier for them to get away with it. That's why I don't hold out much hope for Courts or legislation. In fact I suspect change only works if it happens at the grass-roots level. For much the same reason I'm almost as suspicious of 'models' as I am of ideologies. Too often they are a handy way of setting things in concrete for the benefit of whoever dreamed them up. The best advice I ever had was "Never mind the rules - just do whatever works." It was said in the context of my personal life, but it seems to work just as well everywhere else too. Katherine, I've been having a look at your website and I think what your organization is doing is great. I wish more Maori would do likewise and reach out to Pakeha they come across in their daily lives with a friendly "come and get to know us better." In my teaching days back in the 1960's those of us in smaller and mostly Maori communities made a point of doing that with newcomers, and our race relations were pretty good. I hope you city folk are listening! It doesn't need to be didactic or ideological - direct experience is always the best antidote for mistaken ideas, and a simple "come and have fun with us" invitation is probably the best. Gotta go - good doco on Maori TV I don't want to miss.
Kia ora I think we are all in the conversation e hoa. Reflecting on the events of the last 6 12 months I have found that there was a judgement call about language and timing that we got wrong. The decision we made to go with the Minister Labans desire to have a government forum earlier than we wanted and on terms that turned out to be more exclusively focused on government outcomes than sector interests was the issue and the call to go along with this was wrong. We had gone through the ringer about language previously (in fact over several years previously). The government had been apoplectic about the two house model and regarded is as constitutional reform in drag then and now has a view to distance itself from it by saying that sector method doesnt interest government. Achievement of government outcomes does. We went with the Government idea and as it turned out scrapped all the way and look where we got to - 5 forum agreements that Winnie Laban torpedoed by setting up work programmes that were controlled by public servants. My reflection on this is that we need to own our own language and seek to interpret but not appease any more.
Tony -----Original Message----- From: Pania Coote <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 4:46 p.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Sorry for butting into the conversation, but why would we want to let go the two house model renamed as the "New Way of Working"? This model was given birth from the Tangata Whenua, Community and Voluntary Sector. Also, the relationship approach is transparent and the language reflects the voices within the sector. The model is based on values, it's obviously the letting go approach is only one sided. Kia mia Pania -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Peet <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 9:48 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Yes, Tony - and I think we do just have to continue to get on with trying for that relational approach. I am a bit apprehensive about asking the following question. However in the spirit of both the relational approach and the action Alan to which refers here goes! Please do say - I won't be hurt by challenge! What are your responses to letting go of the "two house" model language - I don't think it communicates the relational approach. Could we just shift in to a "Tiriti Relationships" model, where participants commit to tangata / ta kata whenua and tangata / takata tiriti caucussing as the methodology. More on this on <www.nwo.org.nz>. Would love feedback! Kia manawanui Katherine On 28/02/2008, Tony Spelman <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora tatou > > > > What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we have > all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending > on > your point of view. > > > > Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what > goes > with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without a > resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! > > > > For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase > independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful we > in > effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in that > shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the > two > houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao > Maori > and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why the > managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs to > be > more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree > to. > > > > > The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the > government > is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that the > Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government > is > about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three > years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, > then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a > country > that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of the > statement. > > > > Tony Spelman > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan <email obscured>] > Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > > > > > Kia ora koutou. > > > > Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and > got > himself caught in it! > > > > I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully > considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are > all > valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a > pittance > of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a > few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with > land > confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu > Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my > bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair > skinned > but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my > well-meaning > Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so > many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I > already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when > I > was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That > insinuation I was keeping bad > > company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics > by > having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. > > > > Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I > don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we > could > find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why > don't > we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I > think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so > simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a > few > rough edges remain. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 > > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 2906 (20080227) __________ > > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3P55Z3lYkak6ujIlCJDtqN > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281 ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/6ZABDwpcVpY14wo7hZ6MOq To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/5oLrIJY4UiWGvFNmpi6eMY To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2906 (20080227) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Great to get your feedback - I am just (bravely) testing the suggestion! I would like to talk more about this if anyone is interested - let's wait and see if anyone is even interested to consider the suggestion. I do not want to suggest it alone! Kia kaha Katherine
On 28/02/2008, Pania Coote <email obscured>> wrote: > > Sorry for butting into the conversation, but why would we want to let go > the > two house model renamed as the "New Way of Working"? This model was given > birth from the Tangata Whenua, Community and Voluntary Sector. Also, the > relationship approach is transparent and the language reflects the voices > within the sector. The model is based on values, it's obviously the > letting > go approach is only one sided. > > Kia mia > Pania > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Katherine Peet <email obscured>] > > Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 9:48 a.m. > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > > > Yes, Tony - and I think we do just have to continue to get on with trying > for that relational approach. > > I am a bit apprehensive about asking the following question. However in > the > spirit of both the relational approach and the action Alan to which refers > here goes! Please do say - I won't be hurt by challenge! > > What are your responses to letting go of the "two house" model language - > I > don't think it communicates the relational approach. Could we just shift > in > to a "Tiriti Relationships" model, where participants commit to tangata / > ta > kata whenua and tangata / takata tiriti caucussing as the methodology. > More > on this on <www.nwo.org.nz>. > > Would love feedback! > > Kia manawanui > Katherine > > On 28/02/2008, Tony Spelman <email obscured>> wrote: > > > > Kia ora tatou > > > > > > > > What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we > have > > all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending > > on > > your point of view. > > > > > > > > Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what > > goes > > with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without > a > > resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! > > > > > > > > For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase > > independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful > we > > in > > effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in > that > > shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the > > two > > houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao > > Maori > > and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why > the > > managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs > to > > be > > more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree > > to. > > > > > > > > > > The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the > > government > > is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that > the > > Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government > > is > > about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three > > years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, > > then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a > > country > > that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of > the > > statement. > > > > > > > > Tony Spelman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alan <email obscured>] > > Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. > > To: <email obscured> > > Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > > > > > > > > > > Kia ora koutou. > > > > > > > > Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and > > got > > himself caught in it! > > > > > > > > I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully > > considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are > > all > > valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a > > pittance > > of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy > a > > few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with > > land > > confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu > > Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my > > bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair > > skinned > > but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my > > well-meaning > > Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so > > many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I > > already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even > when > > I > > was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That > > insinuation I was keeping bad > > > > company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my > critics > > by > > having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. > > > > > > > > Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I > > don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we > > could > > find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why > > don't > > we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I > > think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so > > simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a > > few > > rough edges remain. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 > > > > > > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > > > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > > > > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > > > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature > > > > database 2906 (20080227) __________ > > > > > > > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3P55Z3lYkak6ujIlCJDtqN > > > > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > > -- > 87 Soleares Ave > Christchurch 8081 > Phone 03 384 1281 > Fax 03 384 6281 > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/6ZABDwpcVpY14wo7hZ6MOq > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/5oLrIJY4UiWGvFNmpi6eMY > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281
Sorry for butting into the conversation, but why would we want to let go the two house model renamed as the "New Way of Working"? This model was given birth from the Tangata Whenua, Community and Voluntary Sector. Also, the relationship approach is transparent and the language reflects the voices within the sector. The model is based on values, it's obviously the letting go approach is only one sided. Kia māia Pania
-----Original Message----- From: Katherine Peet <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 9:48 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Yes, Tony - and I think we do just have to continue to get on with trying for that relational approach. I am a bit apprehensive about asking the following question. However in the spirit of both the relational approach and the action Alan to which refers here goes! Please do say - I won't be hurt by challenge! What are your responses to letting go of the "two house" model language - I don't think it communicates the relational approach. Could we just shift in to a "Tiriti Relationships" model, where participants commit to tangata / ta kata whenua and tangata / takata tiriti caucussing as the methodology. More on this on <www.nwo.org.nz>. Would love feedback! Kia manawanui Katherine On 28/02/2008, Tony Spelman <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora tatou > > > > What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we have > all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending > on > your point of view. > > > > Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what > goes > with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without a > resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! > > > > For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase > independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful we > in > effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in that > shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the > two > houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao > Maori > and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why the > managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs to > be > more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree > to. > > > > > The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the > government > is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that the > Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government > is > about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three > years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, > then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a > country > that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of the > statement. > > > > Tony Spelman > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan <email obscured>] > Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > > > > > Kia ora koutou. > > > > Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and > got > himself caught in it! > > > > I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully > considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are > all > valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a > pittance > of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a > few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with > land > confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu > Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my > bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair > skinned > but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my > well-meaning > Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so > many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I > already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when > I > was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That > insinuation I was keeping bad > > company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics > by > having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. > > > > Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I > don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we > could > find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why > don't > we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I > think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so > simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a > few > rough edges remain. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 > > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 2906 (20080227) __________ > > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3P55Z3lYkak6ujIlCJDtqN > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281 ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/6ZABDwpcVpY14wo7hZ6MOq To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
I tautoko your korero, its difficult when people are closed minded and like to control processes other than there own. I agree the shared space is not just making a grocery list; it's differently the big picture in which we conduct ourselves through respecting each others worldviews/culture. Kia kaha,
Pania -----Original Message----- From: Tony Spelman <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 9:25 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora tatou What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we have all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending on your point of view. Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what goes with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without a resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful we in effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in that shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the two houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao Maori and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why the managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs to be more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree to. The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the government is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that the Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government is about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of the statement. Tony Spelman -----Original Message----- From: Alan <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora koutou. Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and got himself caught in it! I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are all valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a pittance of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with land confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair skinned but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my well-meaning Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when I was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That insinuation I was keeping bad company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics by having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we could find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why don't we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a few rough edges remain. ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2906 (20080227) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3P55Z3lYkak6ujIlCJDtqN To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
Yes, Tony - and I think we do just have to continue to get on with trying for that relational approach. I am a bit apprehensive about asking the following question. However in the spirit of both the relational approach and the action Alan to which refers here goes! Please do say - I won't be hurt by challenge! What are your responses to letting go of the "two house" model language - I don't think it communicates the relational approach. Could we just shift in to a "Tiriti Relationships" model, where participants commit to tangata / ta kata whenua and tangata / takata tiriti caucussing as the methodology. More on this on <www.nwo.org.nz>. Would love feedback! Kia manawanui Katherine
On 28/02/2008, Tony Spelman <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora tatou > > > > What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we have > all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending > on > your point of view. > > > > Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what > goes > with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without a > resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! > > > > For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase > independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful we > in > effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in that > shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the > two > houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao > Maori > and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why the > managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs to > be > more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree > to. > > > > > The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the > government > is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that the > Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government > is > about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three > years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, > then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a > country > that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of the > statement. > > > > Tony Spelman > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan <email obscured>] > Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. > To: <email obscured> > Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > > > > > Kia ora koutou. > > > > Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and > got > himself caught in it! > > > > I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully > considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are > all > valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a > pittance > of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a > few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with > land > confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu > Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my > bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair > skinned > but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my > well-meaning > Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so > many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I > already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when > I > was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That > insinuation I was keeping bad > > company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics > by > having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. > > > > Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I > don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we > could > find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why > don't > we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I > think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so > simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a > few > rough edges remain. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 > > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > > database 2906 (20080227) __________ > > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3P55Z3lYkak6ujIlCJDtqN > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281
Kia ora tatou What strikes me is that we are all caught in the mousetrap because we have all been a victim or a beneficiary of the colonisation process depending on your point of view. Even for those who say that they don't want a bar of the Crown and what goes with it, you still can't put up a shed at the back of the marae without a resource consent. So much for rangatiratanga ne! For me it is about taking control and looking for actions that increase independence. When we do the consultation thing and try to be helpful we in effect cede everything because we have no ability to decide things in that shared space. That is why in the CST model the shared space between the two houses needs to be populated by people who know how to work with Te Ao Maori and the range of worlds of the Crown Treaty partner. That is also why the managing the dynamics of the shared space between the two houses needs to be more than generating a common shopping list that both parties can agree to. The thing I cannot get over with the Foreshore performance of the government is that they felt OK to dropkick Te Ao Maori because they insist that the Crown rules absolutely. For me the two worldview approach in government is about relational governance not absolute power checked once every three years at the ballot box. If we got on with the task of developing this, then I could make sense of Georgina's statement "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori". Without this work I can't make sense of the statement. Tony Spelman
-----Original Message----- From: Alan <email obscured>] Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 8:57 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora koutou. Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and got himself caught in it! I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are all valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a pittance of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with land confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair skinned but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my well-meaning Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when I was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That insinuation I was keeping bad company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics by having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we could find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why don't we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a few rough edges remain. ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4PjPkgFpUkgidsYIYS5f11 To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2906 (20080227) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Kia ora koutou. Hmmm. I'm starting to feel like the man who built a better mousetrap and got himself caught in it! I agree with everything you all say - and the many other carefully considered points of view I've been hearing for over 50 years. They are all valid but they haven't brought us any nearer to a solution. I get a pittance of a kaumatua grant from Ngai Tahu but while that settlement did remedy a few wrongs there are still very big issues that have nothing to do with land confiscation. I think the best summary I ever heard was Georgina Te Heu Heu's "I want to live in a country that allows me to be Maori." With my bicultural background that strikes a very responsive note. I am fair skinned but as a teenager I chose to be Maori, and the response from my well-meaning Pakeha friends was to urge me not to because as a Pakeha I would have so many more opportunities. On one level they were probably right, but I already had Maori values and I never regretted my decision - not even when I was refused a rental car because of the Maori friends I was with. That insinuation I was keeping bad company surfaced again and again over the years. I confounded my critics by having a thoroughly rewarding life with some wonderful friends. Making an issue more complex makes it harder to solve, and that's why I don't like ideological approaches (except of course my own!) I wish we could find a really simple solution that has everyone saying "of course, why don't we do XYZ instead of wasting all this time and energy on in-fighting?" I think that's how Whata won over the Anglicans - he made it all sound so simple and sensible. Their dual governance seems to be working even if a few rough edges remain.
kia ora koutou I am mindful that being from the north I have a possibly jaundiced view of both Te Tiriti and The Treaty. My understanding has always been that a nation was not what we were, as we were hapu with all the rivalries that kept us ever vigilant against incursions by our neighbours and ever ready to increase our own boundaries be it by creating allies via taumau or war. The Treaty I believe recognised this by its referral to nga Rangatira me nga Hapu o Nu Tirani. The fact that a number of Iwi/hapu did not sign is methinks more about locality, accessability and censorship (e.g. nga wahine that were denied the right to sign) to and by those who carried the documents around the country. The existing rivalries between hapu may too have been a factor on who did and didn't sign. The more I have read on the journey of the Treaty around the motu, the more I suspect it to be similar to the petitioning for referendum on unpopular laws, whereby signatures are gained willy nilly regardless of understanding or a lack of.. The many attempts of interpretation via the Crown and Courts of Law has in my mind served to further confuse the wording of both documents, an act that again I do not believe to be accidental. Allowing an M.P. to challenge the inclusion of Te Tiriti/The Treaty principles within N.Z. Statutes is in my small view an act of treason given that this is the founding document of our nation as 2 peoples. I too, smart whenever the word 'multi-culturalism' is touted as to my mind this further serves to denigrate our position as the indigenous people of this land and the only partner to The Treaty. The two house model whilst perhaps not perfect is the closest I have seen to promote the well-being of both partners, it is also the model I promote for dialogue among Diploma and Degree students on 'how could we better demonstrate equity of partnership within Aotearoa?'. I know Iris has encountered past students of mine in her travels that have discussed the CST model and the possibilities it contains. In reference to the Anglican Church - I can only say that the intent of Matua Whata Winiata was honourable to both partners however the reality of this arrangement is far from the intent envisaged. Having a whanaunga whom is a Bishop and marae whanaunga whom are priests within the Maori Anglican church I have seen the disparity of priests struggling financially to honour their faith in unpaid positions with no assistance from the church, yet our Bishop is comfortably paid and housed. The service of our unpaid priests to the many whanau within their rohe more than equates to their brothers and sisters in the partner positions yet they are largely unsupported by the church in this role. Equity within the church within seperate houses has not occurred. The recent development of Ngati Porou negotiations with the Crown regarding the Foreshore to be shortly followed by Te Whanau a Apanui similarly, further demonstrates that Iwi leadership (promoted as the only vehicle recognised by the Crown) as opposed to nga Hapu has enabled further eroding of Te Tiriti. The support of Iwi driven consultation/negotiation as opposed to hapu shall provide continued barriers to any attempt to ratify Te Tiriti.
joy . ----- Original Message ---- From: Tony Spelman <email obscured>> To: <email obscured> Sent: Wednesday, 27 February, 2008 4:21:03 PM Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora Iris ma I understand the point Alan is making but the Treaty to the English mind required a sovereign group to treat with. Ng hap were recognised as such a "group" rather than an ethnic minority or even a numerically dominant group with no political infrastructure or influence. If the latter was the perception there would have been no Treaty. So when a population-driven argument about multiculturalism is put today many of us feel the put down intended or unintended implicit in such arguments. Tony -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Peet <email obscured>] Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 10:15 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora Iris - and Alan - and? The Queen acknowledged and agreed to the Tino Rangatiratanga of nga Rangatira me nga Hapu o Nu Tirani - sounds like recognising the absolute authority of the indigenous peoples to me! This is reiterated in Normanby's instructions to Hobson in his recognition of Maori title to the soil and sovereignty. The responsibility of King William in 1834 in the Declaration of Independence refers to the "State" of Nga Hapu o Tireni. >From a Takata Tiriti perspective I believe there is a responsibility to honour this history. This needs to go beyond "legality". The OTS negotiations with "Iwi" and the direct negotiations by the current Government with "Iwi", for example the latest Foreshore issues with Ngati Porou only make things more complex. How I wish we could have a face to face discussion! Katherine On 27/02/2008, Alan <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora Iris ma. > > There are two legal fish hooks in Te Tiriti we need to be careful of. The > first is that there was no "Maori Nation" in 1840 - we were Iwi who had all > sorts of good and bad relationships with each other, and the Treaty was > between the British Crown and those Iwi who signed it individually. As we > all know several Iwi didn't. Te Tiriti made us stakeholders but not > participants. That's why OTS negotiates with Iwi and not with "Maori." > > The other gray area is how the NZ Government inherited the British Crown's > role. When NZ cut its British apron strings (in stages, mostly in 1907, > 1931 and 1947) the Brits didn't give much thought to Tiriti implications and > none of the constitutional legislation addressed it specifically. It is > usually assumed that "Crown" means "Government" but an underlying legal > uncertainty remains. > > What this means in practice is using the Courts to sort out the resulting > mess gives plenty of scope for smart people to stall, delay and subvert > Maori efforts to get what we think is rightfully ours, and the only people > who get much out of it are the lawyers. I don't think protest and occupation > helps us much in the long run, but I can understand the frustration of the > people who see it as all we have left. > > Is there a better way? Something positive? > > I am remembering how Whatarangi Winiata talked the Anglican Church around > to agreeing on dual governance, against very strong opposition. He won them > over with a non-threatening concept of two autonomous synods working > together towards a mutual harmony that would give them the best of both > worlds - and it worked. Significantly, these days he is the president of the > Maori Party which is a great deal more positive and more willing to engage > with its enemies than any of its pro-Maori political predecessors. > > 50 years ago I heard Canon Hepa Taepa comparing us to the keys on a piano. > Play white keys only and you'll get some sort of a tune. The same is true if > you play black keys only. Play all of them together and that's when you > really get harmony! > > I've always liked that metaphor. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3QaXptzlJiNAc3dLls2n2O > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281 ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4OsZnDx6Kyyz3yCAFYumBm To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2903 (20080226) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2903 (20080226) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.. http://www.eset.com ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/6ozOGQF2AETWjYJ7hhFKj4 To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net
Kia ora Iris ma I understand the point Alan is making but the Treaty to the English mind required a sovereign group to treat with. Ng hap were recognised as such a "group" rather than an ethnic minority or even a numerically dominant group with no political infrastructure or influence. If the latter was the perception there would have been no Treaty. So when a population-driven argument about multiculturalism is put today many of us feel the put down intended or unintended implicit in such arguments.
Tony -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Peet <email obscured>] Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2008 10:15 a.m. To: <email obscured> Subject: Re: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework Kia ora Iris - and Alan - and? The Queen acknowledged and agreed to the Tino Rangatiratanga of nga Rangatira me nga Hapu o Nu Tirani - sounds like recognising the absolute authority of the indigenous peoples to me! This is reiterated in Normanby's instructions to Hobson in his recognition of Maori title to the soil and sovereignty. The responsibility of King William in 1834 in the Declaration of Independence refers to the "State" of Nga Hapu o Tireni. >From a Takata Tiriti perspective I believe there is a responsibility to honour this history. This needs to go beyond "legality". The OTS negotiations with "Iwi" and the direct negotiations by the current Government with "Iwi", for example the latest Foreshore issues with Ngati Porou only make things more complex. How I wish we could have a face to face discussion! Katherine On 27/02/2008, Alan <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora Iris ma. > > There are two legal fish hooks in Te Tiriti we need to be careful of. The > first is that there was no "Maori Nation" in 1840 - we were Iwi who had all > sorts of good and bad relationships with each other, and the Treaty was > between the British Crown and those Iwi who signed it individually. As we > all know several Iwi didn't. Te Tiriti made us stakeholders but not > participants. That's why OTS negotiates with Iwi and not with "Maori." > > The other gray area is how the NZ Government inherited the British Crown's > role. When NZ cut its British apron strings (in stages, mostly in 1907, > 1931 and 1947) the Brits didn't give much thought to Tiriti implications and > none of the constitutional legislation addressed it specifically. It is > usually assumed that "Crown" means "Government" but an underlying legal > uncertainty remains. > > What this means in practice is using the Courts to sort out the resulting > mess gives plenty of scope for smart people to stall, delay and subvert > Maori efforts to get what we think is rightfully ours, and the only people > who get much out of it are the lawyers. I don't think protest and occupation > helps us much in the long run, but I can understand the frustration of the > people who see it as all we have left. > > Is there a better way? Something positive? > > I am remembering how Whatarangi Winiata talked the Anglican Church around > to agreeing on dual governance, against very strong opposition. He won them > over with a non-threatening concept of two autonomous synods working > together towards a mutual harmony that would give them the best of both > worlds - and it worked. Significantly, these days he is the president of the > Maori Party which is a great deal more positive and more willing to engage > with its enemies than any of its pro-Maori political predecessors. > > 50 years ago I heard Canon Hepa Taepa comparing us to the keys on a piano. > Play white keys only and you'll get some sort of a tune. The same is true if > you play black keys only. Play all of them together and that's when you > really get harmony! > > I've always liked that metaphor. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3QaXptzlJiNAc3dLls2n2O > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281 ----------------------------------------- Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/4OsZnDx6Kyyz3yCAFYumBm To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2903 (20080226) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 2903 (20080226) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
Kia ora Iris - and Alan - and? The Queen acknowledged and agreed to the Tino Rangatiratanga of nga Rangatira me nga Hapu o Nu Tirani - sounds like recognising the absolute authority of the indigenous peoples to me! This is reiterated in Normanby's instructions to Hobson in his recognition of Maori title to the soil and sovereignty. The responsibility of King William in 1834 in the Declaration of Independence refers to the "State" of Nga Hapu o Tireni. From a Takata Tiriti perspective I believe there is a responsibility to honour this history. This needs to go beyond "legality". The OTS negotiations with "Iwi" and the direct negotiations by the current Government with "Iwi", for example the latest Foreshore issues with Ngati Porou only make things more complex. How I wish we could have a face to face discussion!
Katherine On 27/02/2008, Alan <email obscured>> wrote: > > Kia ora Iris ma. > > There are two legal fish hooks in Te Tiriti we need to be careful of. The > first is that there was no "Maori Nation" in 1840 - we were Iwi who had all > sorts of good and bad relationships with each other, and the Treaty was > between the British Crown and those Iwi who signed it individually. As we > all know several Iwi didn't. Te Tiriti made us stakeholders but not > participants. That's why OTS negotiates with Iwi and not with "Maori." > > The other gray area is how the NZ Government inherited the British Crown's > role. When NZ cut its British apron strings (in stages, mostly in 1907, > 1931 and 1947) the Brits didn't give much thought to Tiriti implications and > none of the constitutional legislation addressed it specifically. It is > usually assumed that "Crown" means "Government" but an underlying legal > uncertainty remains. > > What this means in practice is using the Courts to sort out the resulting > mess gives plenty of scope for smart people to stall, delay and subvert > Maori efforts to get what we think is rightfully ours, and the only people > who get much out of it are the lawyers. I don't think protest and occupation > helps us much in the long run, but I can understand the frustration of the > people who see it as all we have left. > > Is there a better way? Something positive? > > I am remembering how Whatarangi Winiata talked the Anglican Church around > to agreeing on dual governance, against very strong opposition. He won them > over with a non-threatening concept of two autonomous synods working > together towards a mutual harmony that would give them the best of both > worlds - and it worked. Significantly, these days he is the president of the > Maori Party which is a great deal more positive and more willing to engage > with its enemies than any of its pro-Maori political predecessors. > > 50 years ago I heard Canon Hepa Taepa comparing us to the keys on a piano. > Play white keys only and you'll get some sort of a tune. The same is true if > you play black keys only. Play all of them together and that's when you > really get harmony! > > I've always liked that metaphor. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/3QaXptzlJiNAc3dLls2n2O > > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > -- 87 Soleares Ave Christchurch 8081 Phone 03 384 1281 Fax 03 384 6281
Kia ora Iris ma. There are two legal fish hooks in Te Tiriti we need to be careful of. The first is that there was no "Maori Nation" in 1840 - we were Iwi who had all sorts of good and bad relationships with each other, and the Treaty was between the British Crown and those Iwi who signed it individually. As we all know several Iwi didn't. Te Tiriti made us stakeholders but not participants. That's why OTS negotiates with Iwi and not with "Maori." The other gray area is how the NZ Government inherited the British Crown's role. When NZ cut its British apron strings (in stages, mostly in 1907, 1931 and 1947) the Brits didn't give much thought to Tiriti implications and none of the constitutional legislation addressed it specifically. It is usually assumed that "Crown" means "Government" but an underlying legal uncertainty remains. What this means in practice is using the Courts to sort out the resulting mess gives plenty of scope for smart people to stall, delay and subvert Maori efforts to get what we think is rightfully ours, and the only people who get much out of it are the lawyers. I don't think protest and occupation helps us much in the long run, but I can understand the frustration of the people who see it as all we have left. Is there a better way? Something positive? I am remembering how Whatarangi Winiata talked the Anglican Church around to agreeing on dual governance, against very strong opposition. He won them over with a non-threatening concept of two autonomous synods working together towards a mutual harmony that would give them the best of both worlds - and it worked. Significantly, these days he is the president of the Maori Party which is a great deal more positive and more willing to engage with its enemies than any of its pro-Maori political predecessors. 50 years ago I heard Canon Hepa Taepa comparing us to the keys on a piano. Play white keys only and you'll get some sort of a tune. The same is true if you play black keys only. Play all of them together and that's when you really get harmony! I've always liked that metaphor.
Ka pai Iris Mahi i te mahi Just to let you know I am still around, drop me a line anytime. Mauri ora
HORI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iris Pahau" <email obscured>> To: <email obscured>> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 AM Subject: [te tiriti relationships] Te Tiriti Relationships Framework > Tena Koutou Katoa > > Hope everyone had a pleasant and safe Christmas and New Year. I just > wanted to start off some discussions around a Te Tiriti/Treaty > Relationships Framework that has been developed and supported by the > Community Sector Taskforce over the past four years. > > The question is often asked 'What is a Te Tiriti/Treaty Relationship' > Framework? Our response to that is: > > Firstly it recognises that Te Tiriti O Waitangi/Treaty of Waitangi was > signed between a Maori Nation and the Crown > > Secondly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have suffered grievances as > indigenous people of this land. > > Thirdly, it recognises that Tangata Whenua have the right and the > responsibility to manaaki all Tangata Tiriti who come to Aotearoa in a > manner that embraces Maoritanga and Tikanga. > > The framework incorporates a 'relationship' approach which requires the > following: > > 1. The terms and relationships between the parties need to be defined and > developed together by the parties > > 2. A Tiriti/Treaty 2-worldview is incorporated throughout the developmet > of the relationship that will ensure that Tangata Whenua have a proper > place within it alongside Tangata Tiriti; > > 3. As a result of the overarching Tiriti/Treaty relationship there will be > an ability for Tangata Whenua to operate from an independent position on > particular issues (through the exercise of tino rangatiratanga); > > 4. All peoples will have a place and a role when the Tangata Whenua > position is secured and a Tiriti/Treaty Relationships approach is > practised. > > So how would this Framework operate in your environment and place of > business? > Where is your organisation at in this development and what actions need to > be taken to get your organisation to this position? > > I would be interested in hearing comments about this > > Noho ora mai > > Iris > > > ----------------------------------------- > Full text of this topic in Te Tiriti Relationships: > http://cst.org.nz/r/topic/WZ2yld9PsP3R5KuUl6yUe > > To leave Te Tiriti Relationships, email > <email obscured>?Subject=unsubscribe > > Te Tiriti Relationships is powered by > OnlineGroups.Net http://onlinegroups.net > >
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